I wish I could claim I said it but I didn’t – Steve Harvey did. Steve Harvey as in one of Spike Lee’s original Kings of Comedy (though it should be noted that he has
a wildly successful men’s suit line…).
Steve was on Oprah promoting his new book Act Like a Lady – Think Like a Man, which is a dating guide not a book about overcoming the trial and tribulations of transgendered life (just clarifying here).
At four o’clock on Monday afternoon I went to watch said Oprah program with some women who were featured on the show – a group of colleagues who run a branding firm that does things like rep T.I.’s clothing line. This is neither here nor there but I mention it to prove that there was in fact an appropriate place to wear my cream, rabbit fur vest. (Wrong again Sara!)
So there was Steve Harvey waxing logical-ish about his theories on the modern woman and where she goes wrong. Throughout the show women Skyped in from across the country – the New York contingent being that group of female marketing execs I was watching with — to bantered with Steve about how frustrating it is to be an independent woman looking for a respectable man. Towards the end Steve dropped some significant knowledge:
“Listen ladies,” Steve Harvey the comedian said, “chivalry isn’t dead – it just isn’t required anymore.”
And with that every single woman yelled something different and generally contradictory at the television.
“OH NO HE DIDN’T!!” “AMEN TO THAT!” “BUUUULSHIIIIT” “THAT’S THAT GOD’S HONEST TRUTH!” “HE BETTER SHUT HIS MOUTH!” “GOD BLESS HIM!”
Steve had struck a cord.
Whether or not chivalry is dead remains in constant contention. Do men still bring flowers and hold doors and make sure they walk over the subway grates so your heels don’t fall in? Do they still pick you up at your house and call you to confirm and listen to the details to surprise you down the road? Haven’t experienced much of it myself, but calling it dead might be bold.
But not
as bold as saying that it would be alive and thriving if it were
required.
What Steve Harvey essentially said was, “men would be chivalrous if they had to be chivalrous in order to get a woman.” So by extension, men are lazy and will only do what’s necessary to get a woman – bare minimum kindness, bare minimum care, no old-school chivalry unless it’s addressed that it’s missing.
I didn’t yell anything at the tv screen because I couldn’t decide which way to react. Also I knew one person at this viewing party and was, as mentioned, in a cream, rabbit fur vest…
Is it the responsibility of women to require chivalry? For argument’s sake let’s go down the path of “yes.” Women must make men treat them with chivalry — they must let it be known that traditional, outward expressions of love are what they want.
Logical question is how? Sad but simple answer is, by withholding hook ups and sex unless they get that chivalrous treatment. If enough women were to say, “I had a nice night but you didn’t make me feel particularly special or do anything unique to impress me so I’m going to pass on you, thanks” men would probably get the picture. I am generalizing what women want here for argument’s sake. What women tend more often to say is, “that was good enough — your place or mine?” I’m generalizing what women do here — same deal.
So Steve Harvey is arguing that if more women said, “fuck this – I want and deserve better” more women would get better by simple rules of supply and demand. Fine Steve.
But to play devils (slash women’s) advocate Shouldn’t men just be better, nicer, more chivalrous men without women having to require it?
I once “knew” a “man” who would regularly respond to my frustrations with, “what do you want from me.” He claimed to honestly not know what to do, how to behave, how to treat me like I felt I deserved to be treated.
My common response to him was, “you should have at this point watched enough television in your life to know how to show a woman you love and care about her.” It’s not that hard.
Dawson was an absolute gem to Joey. Slater regularly did really lovely things for Jesse. DJ’s boyfriend Steve fucking showed up at Disneyworld as a surprise addition to the Tanner Family vacation because he missed her that much. And for the converse example: Jordan Catalona was consistently a flakey douche to Angela but she loved him anyone and subsequently got burned, repeatedly.
Yes, I know these scenarios were scripted, but now you’ve watched them so they should be real ideas in your mind.
So, Steve Harvey — true as your sound bite may sound — I’m not sure I can get behind the fact that I have to go to any extent to inspire you to want to treat me like a loving person should treat someone they’re trying to impress. I’ll still require some chivalry, as you recommend, because that’s me doing my part — me holding down my end of the “I respect myself so please respect me” see-saw. But I’m doing that because I respect myself, not because I’m looking to trick you into treating me with some good old-fashioned love. I think you should do the same because you want to be an excellent and loving man, not because you have to in order to get laid.
And finally – I’m sure there are a handful out there ascribing to the “screw chivalry, men and women are equal, why should I have to do the heavy lifting” philosophy. Fine. That’s valid. But to you I say this:
the concept of chivalry comes from the ages of knights and princesses and royal courts. It was a time when romance happened in mysterious and therefore very sexy ways. If you’ve seen
The Tudors or
The Other Boleyn Girl or really any film starring Eric Bana you should be familiar. These are very, very sexy movies. Far sexier, I think we can all acknowledge, then the films depicting love in our generation:
Knocked Up, 40-year-old Virgin, and the more classic
American Pie (I through III).
So — take your pick. Mine is Steve.
I’m not sure if you want to hold up The Tudors or The Other Boleyn Girl as examples for men to follow, unless you want men to be spreading that sexy, mysterious romance to about six women simultaneously.
Just sayin’ is all…
Great post. A guy once told me that “chivalry is dead because women killed it.”
I do find it sad that I’m always surprised (but happy) when I see teenage boys hold doors or give up their seats on the subway for a woman or an older person. I guess there are at least a few men out there who still believe in chivalry.
What about just chivalry all the time? Not just a man holding a door for a woman, but a man holding a door or doing the proper things for a random stranger. And the other way around. The idea of chivalry in the knight and princess sense is outdated, but just being a decent human being and sweeping someone of her, or his, feet isn’t.
just realized I’m Angela to Jordan. That can’t be good . . .
I absolutely love that Steve said this comment; I hope that it gets women to think about what values they want in their men. As a guy raised to always put women in front of myself, I find that there has never been a benefit to it. Every time that I have been friendly, opened doors, or done something a little extra special it never gets appreciated. If this keeps happening what’s my motivation to continue to be nice, if I’m always crapped on? Women if you want to know why there’s more and more jerks out there well, they’ve given up on being chivalrous because, there truly is no benefit in doing it. If you want chivalry back, let men know that what they do isn’t disregarded and it is expected. I assure you even a small comment like “hey I really appreciate that you did this or that” goes a long way in getting a guy’s attention and he will be more willing to do it in the future.
Please.
Chivalry is dead and nobody killed it.
Chivalry died of natural causes.
Chivalry was (mostly) just a simple extension of basic courtesy. Those expressions of courtesy are now unnecessary— not unnecessary for dating, but unnecessary for navigating daily life. I don’t need anyone to push in my chair anymore, because I’m not wearing a giant hoop skirt. I don’t needhelp putting on my coat, cuz I’m not wearing a corset. Who can’t open their own car door anymore? Or order their own meal in a restaurant? (If the waitstaff won’t take an order from a woman, we’re outta there!)
Frankly, the only thing I can think of that calls for what might be seen as “chivalry” (but is really just awareness of your cared-for fellow human) is high heels. I’d consider it nice if anyone I was walking with offered to switch places so I could avoid heels-through-the-subway-grate or whatever. But I myself do that for my friends if I’m not wearing heels. And I’ve offered a steadying arm to my guy when he was in slippery dress shoes. It’s just a nice thing to do, regardless of any gender foolishness.
Anonymous said…
“As a guy raised to always put women in front of myself, I find that there has never been a benefit to it. Every time that I have been friendly, opened doors, or done something a little extra special it never gets appreciated. If this keeps happening what’s my motivation to continue to be nice, if I’m always crapped on? Women if you want to know why there’s more and more jerks out there well, they’ve given up on being chivalrous because, there truly is no benefit in doing it.”
Let me guess: you’re the guy who only opens the door if you think the chick is hot, looks easy, or you clearly believe you could create some sort of opportunity with her – NEWS FLASH: we already know which of you are sincere and which of you are scammers. Scammer = the guy who is selectively nice. REAL man = the guy who’s nice ANYWAY, because he knows it’s the nice thing to do.
Personally, I like chivalry. It shows that the man respects the woman, and the woman respects herself enough to not allow lesser treatment. But forget chivalry, why can’t people understand it is just being nice. It’s chivalrous to open a door for a stranger or be polite to elders. The old meaning of chivalry is outdated, and when people talk of chivalry, they aren’t talking about knights and a man laying his coat down so a woman doesn’t have to walk on mud or whatever. I don’t understand why some women get angry and claim it’s offensive. A chivalrous man respects women a whole hell of a lot more than one who lets a door slam in his dates face.
its not dead its just there are to many morons and bigets in this world now adays to pass it on to there children like my parents did to me as i grew up.
i was brought up to be courtesy to others and hold the door for complete strangers all the time just the way i was raised. what we need to do is get this/my generation back on track im sick and tired of having trouble finding a date because there so used to dealing with jerks and just accept it that way.
Chivalry (what people seem to be using to refer to what I would call courtesy) isn’t dead. Its just not as showy as it used to be, and in our time not as gender specific.
Great post! I stumbled upon your blog while doing research for an article on chivalry. Very well thought out.