“Lemme get your take on something,” one male friend said as we ascended the subway on 23rd street after grabbing some sandwiches and sunburn at the Boat Basin. “I’ve experienced this situation a few times recently with a few different girls I’ve gone out with.”
“Okay…” I said, but what I meant was, “awesome because I don’t have a blog topic for Wednesday…”
“So we’ll hang out a few times, maybe go on a few dates,” he said, “and then it’ll get to that point, and I’ll say, ‘so, do you want to go back to my place?’ and then she’ll say something like, “yeah, but we’re not going to have sex.”
I laughed. Not because that’s ridiculous in general, but because it was ridiculous to hear crossing from west to east on 6th Avenue and 23rd street at 3pm on a Saturday.
“I feel like this just started happening?” he said, “Is it because we’re at that age or something? And are all girls saying this? Do girls you know say that?” he asked. “Because it’s a really awkward question. I mean, I’m not going in assuming that’s going to happen – I never assume that – so why are they?”
Yes, I know girls who say this, I told him, and I may or may not be or have been one of them…
“Well imagine if I were to say, ‘just so you know, I want sex out of this,'” he said, “because that’s essentially the opposite of what they’re saying.”
“I sort of wish guys would,” I told him, “because it would make things a lot easier…”
We laughed about how that dynamic could play out – if a guy/girl negotiation occurred prior to any hook-up – but I realized my joke of a response actually revealed the whole of the answer to his question.
But take this one in order:
Are women saying this now? First, let’s talk about what “now” refers to. In this case my friend is saying “now that we’re 26,7,8…” not now that it’s 2010. He means now in the progression of what hooking up is to us as adults.
Why is/could that be significant? Because perhaps people’s sexual expectations change as they get older meaning what’s expected out of the hook-up of two 21-year-old isn’t the same as what’s expected from two 28-year-olds. So part of the “why are girls saying this?” question is what’s going into their thought process about hook-ups in general? Specifically, are girls at this age assuming that a guy expects a hook-up to involve sex?
I don’t really know but my inclination is to say yes. At 18 – 24 people hooked-up because it was the activity du jour. You got drunk, you hooked up. This wasn’t necessarily right or safe or smart, but it was. Now at 26-30 you’re likely drinking less and thinking more. It’s first dates and not 3 hours on the dance floor that lead to the “do you want to come to my place?” question. So maybe we’ve grown up a little and, in the process, are less comfortable dealing with the “just so you know…” issue once the clothes are off?
But to get to the gist of it – yes, many girls assume that a guy who is asking them back to his place intends to hook up. And many girls assume that a guy who wants to hook up after the first date would like for that to include sex. So to level-set the expectations about a. what’s going to happen and b. who they are as women, many may feel inclined to say, “yes, but…”
And to take it one semi-difficult to explain step further – in saying yes to the, “do you want to come back to my place?” on or around a first date/meeting many girls may assume that a guy is from that point on looking at them as “the kind of girl who goes home with a guy after the first date/meeting” and as a logical next step may assume she is the kind of girl who would sleep with a guy after the first date/meeting, so to re-set his view of her she says, “yes, but we’re not going to have sex.”
Part of the problem here is that girls (think they’re) experts at assuming what a guy thinks about them based on his stock guy actions (inviting her back to his place being one). We can’t wholly be blamed because much of this is rooted in an unfortunate amount of experience-based research, but if this friend of mine is any indication, not every guy means, “so we can have sex” when he asks, “do you want to come back to my place” making answering him with a “yes, but we’re not having sex” presumptuous and somewhat rude. I’d argue that these girls may be doing it as a gut-check – a let-me-see-how-he-reacts-as-another-step-in-my-attempt-to-discern-how-much-he-likes-me-before-I-get-in-too-deep. Again, can’t be blamed, but can’t really be endorsed.
How did my friend feel about the various girls who disclaimed the night? It made things somewhat awkward but didn’t ruin the exchange. His bigger concern seemed to be what he could have done to make them assume that’s what he expected.
I’m afraid the unfortunate answer is, “be a guy”…
So is my gut-check right? And/or have you said this? Have you heard this? And what’s your take either way?
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First time commenter…. but I laughed when I read this because I so used to be that girl. In my case, though, I was the 18-22 year old college student whose response to “let’s go to my room/apartment” was “ok, but I’m only going to make out with you….”
I definitely had the assumption that a guy would want “more” if he got me back to his room/apartment/etc. Most of these guys were very nice so it’s not like they were jerks about it, but somehow I’d rather explain myself before I left the party/bar than when I’m already at the guy’s place.
PS – I went to BC too 😉
I have tooootes said this to a guy before, and I’m “only” 24. I have actually said it on drunken hookups.
I think it’s mostly because I’m uber-paranoid about STDs in the city and when I’m taking home a random boy whose name I barely know, I don’t want to wake up in the morning – even if we used a condom – and be like oh shiiiiit what have I done and do I need to get tested now JUST in case.
But in the case where you’ve been on a few dates and you both seem to like each other and you feel comfortable with the other person… hm. I’m not sure. Maybe the girl just wants to ensure that there’s no skewed level of expectation – she’s assuming that because he’s a guy and wants to take her room, he wants to bang her. She wants to get that idea out of his head before they even get home, because she fears that in the heat of the moment she won’t be able to say no – either because she secretly doesn’t really WANT to say no, or because she doesn’t want to hurt his fragile male ego.
Better to hurt his ego when he’s standing on a sidewalk with a beer in his hand than when he’s naked, crouched over putting a condom on and rarin’ to go. I mean, can you imagine? “Ummm, actually, yeah no. I don’t want to fuck you.”
Ouch.
Hi Jessie,
I suppose I should start by saying how much I enjoy your blog. I check it every day but have never commented before (I think), perhaps because it’s been a few years since we’ve spoken. Anyway, this post intrigued me enough to comment because I’ve heard the “we’re not having sex” line a number of times. Here’s my take:
For one, your friend set the scenario at “…we’ll hang out a few times, maybe go on a few dates..” but you jumped quickly to the first date/meeting. I don’t think the two are the same. Assuming that someone wants to have sex after one date/meeting is one thing, but after a few times spent hanging out together, I think it’s natural to assume that there’s physical interest on the part of both parties.
I do think the level of hook-up expectations and progression are different now than when we were younger. In my opinion (and based on my experiences and those of my friends), simply making out does not hold too much appeal for too many guys in most circumstances (it’s still a great activity, just one that often is not valued on its own). This is not to say that all men expect sex from the outset, but it’s also not totally unexpected either.
Perhaps a finer point is that expecting sex and wanting/hoping for sex are two different things. My guess is that few guys would turn down sex early in a courtship (including on a first date), but few also expect it. We know how both sides approach this…wanting to express interest without appearing too eager…so expecting and/or asking for it on a first date is risky at best. I think girls certainly hold back (including saying “We’re not going to have sex.”)in order to better gauge a guy’s reaction and his level of interest.
One final point: I think too much is made of what guys think about girls who go home with/sleep with them on a first date. I suppose some guys might not further date girls who do that, but personally I don’t understand it. Sometimes two people are just attracted to each other and want to hook up. It doesn’t mean that’s what both do all the time; it could just be that for those two, on that night, something clicked. And I don’t think that should have any larger ramifications.
Ok, final, final point: Girls: not sleeping with us early in a relationship is fine. Just be honest about it. Tell us why. Don’t do it as part of a game or to figure out what sort of guys are. If you want to get to know us better, tell us. If that’s just your speed, tell us. Please, just don’t make us guess.
Sorry to all if that rambled on a little.
Best,
Brian
Yep. I’ve totally said this. And I agree with the comment by Meghan – it’s way easier to say it beforehand than during. PLUS, most guys that I’ve talked to would go as far as the girl is willing to let him so we might as well let him know how far that is before he gets any false hopes. And lots of guys do think that if you get hot and heavy enough, it does mean it’s leading to sex. I see nothing wrong with laying down some of the expectations beforehand. Isn’t that just less stressful in the long run (or short run, depending on the situation).
I totally agree with the other ladies — better to put it out there than have the guy wondering if it’s going to happen, and potential being awkward (or pushy) as a result.
Like Brian said, I believe that most guys are certainly open to the idea of sex early in a relationship, even if they’re not expecting it. And if he’s the type of guy who would be turned off by you ruling out sex, better to know that before you’re in his bedroom.
I have recently started saying that. I am 26 and just started actually dating people and not just friends or random hookups. Because of my feelings getting hurt post hookup and getting slightly burnt after my first few dating experiences, I can’t help but at first assume all guys just want sex have sex.
I have now made a rule that I do not hookup with a guy unless we are at least 5 dates in or 4 weeks.
This way I feel like I know he is interested and know his true intentions by then.
I implemented this rule after my 1st dating experience from a dating website. He seemed interested…we had 3 dates. Went back to his place. Hooked-up. Hooked-up again, then next day he says “I just want to be friends.”
So far I have dated 6 guys since then and have never made it to the 5th date as I realize I am not interested in them and we are not a good match. So this rule is very beneficial for me so I am not making my “list” sky high.
I guy who just wants to hookup is rarely going to hang around for 5 dates.
I know it is wrong to assume a guy is just interested in sex but this makes me more comfortable going back to his place on the 1st or 2nd date… if he knows up front what not to expect.
Re: the sixth comment, I’d be interested to know how you define “hooking up” and what, if anything, happens between you and a suitor prior to Date 5.
Not hooking up until after five dates is not in and of itself a bad idea (in my opinion). However, a guy has to know that you’re interested in and attracted to him to continue pursuing you after dates 3,4,5, etc.. Assuming you’re interested in him, what signals do you send? Post-date kisses? Park bench making out? Make-out sleepovers that unconditionally go no farther?
I think a guy who actually likes you should have no problem waiting five dates, four weeks, or longer. He just needs to know that the interest is mutual. The pay-off, then, becomes not the hook-up but the relationship that’s developing.
(PS Jessie, it’s Brian Cooke.)
He was probably talking about me. Kidding, but no, I have said it and probably would say it again if I felt like I could keep it light-hearted (so the guy would think: “Is she joking? Was that tongue-in-cheek?” I know, exactly what guys hate for girls to do).
Anyway, what’s worse is when you KNOW you’re only going to go past a certain point, the guy doesn’t seem to get the memo, and you have to blurt out something awkward mid-grope like “I’m not [insert random girl you know he banged'” and then storm out as if ANY of it was unexpected.
Personally, I’d like men to sign contracts before I so much as step into their car, but I realize this is just a lost cause.
Wow… what a reality check. I said this to my BF the first night we went out. Basically he asked me to come back; I said I wasn’t going to have sex with him; he said “but will you sleep over?”
I liked him a lot and wanted to make sure I could trust him before sleeping with him. It is a very awkward exchange; no one can argue this. But I think it’s fair to stand up for what you want and how you feel. If you are testing the guy to find out how he feels, just ask him. If he can’t be open and share it with you, you aren’t starting on the right foot.
I have to say, not only have girls said this to me, and then we’ve had sex (that she aggressively initiated) but I’ve heard this enough where I find this extremely insulting.
Presumptuous? Frankly, she should be so lucky.
I’m going through this right now and really dislike having to deal with setting boundaries. Whenever I have to remove his hand or stop mid make out and make it clear what I do / do not want it has always been awkward and uncomfortable. I’ve come to accept that unless there is a prince charming out there (who reads minds?), boundaries will always have to be established.
Despite how awkward I feel, I try to not let myself feel bad about “holding out” until I know the guy is right. Why would you compromise your integrity for some dude? If he understands then he’s worth going out with again. If not, maybe start looking for someone else.