Every once in awhile I find myself writing a perspective on a topic that I hate myself for having to admit – i.e. the Why Girls Go For Assholes explanation or Sexism: Guys v. Girls on Marriage Thoughts. This blog isn’t about the way I wish things were or the way I’m trying to pretend things are. It’s about the reality of things. And sometimes that reality is crappy.
Today’s topic is one of those topics. It comes via a male reader who is a fan of both this blog, comics from the U.K. and Suburban New Jersey – so, my new best friend.
“One of the things I don’t think I’ve ever seen you touch on is the topic of ‘nice guys’. Being one, I can tell you that it’s not a very enviable position. If I watch one more good female friend whine about how horrible guys are then run off after a terrible guy I might lose my mind. Yet most (those who I’ve chosen to make feelings known for) have spurned all advances. I feel like I’m stuck in this weird middle ground where every girl I meet either completely ignores me or ends up in the very good friend category. I already know all the textbook advice, like don’t look like a slob, like yourself, etc. but apparently I’m just too nice. At least that’s all I can think of; but I’d love to hear from some women what a truly ‘nice’ guy has to do to be seen as dating material.”
The cliche – “nice guys finish last” is a cliche for a reason. Overtly loving, instantly affectionate, clear-with-their-emotions guys aka the best-big-brother-in-the-world types often have less instant success with the ladies than their brasher, rougher, asshole-ier counterparts.
(Massive disclaimer of this post: not all nice guys finish last, not all assholes finish first, not all girls like assholes, not all girls hate nice guys, I don’t hate nice guys, I don’t love assholes, etc, etc, etc)
Now here comes the part where I hate what I’m about to say.
There is something instantly attractive and sexy about a guy who is rough around the edges. He makes you work for a compliment. He gives you a look that might say, “wow” but could just as easily say, “hhmm.” His jokes are edgy. His approach to things is a little rogue. You’re not quite sure what he’s going to do or how he feels about you. All you know is that you’re attracted to him and turned on by his whole cocky energy.
This is not right or smart or universal or advised – it just is. Kind of like how guys are attracted to mysterious, coy, flaky girls instead of their overtly mature and together counter parts.
We want what we’re not sure about. We want what makes us wonder. And some of us want that hate-to-love someone relationship.
I am not proud to admit this, but for the sake of this post I’ll reveal that I have on more than one occasion referred to a guy as “too nice.” I would never say I’m attracted to assholes, but I do love a guy who isn’t afraid to make fun of me, who likes an edgy joke, who doesn’t necessarily jump the minute I say, “want to get dinner?”
I cannot begin to explain the psychology behind this. Maybe I want someone a twinge mean because I’m a twinge mean and would feel uncomfortable around a sugar sweet companion? Maybe in some sick way I love the chase, and a nice guy makes it too easy? Maybe it all dates back to my childhood obsession with Beauty and the Beast? I don’t know. I just like a little edge.
My conclusion isn’t to say, “stop being so nice” or “blow her off once in awhile” or “tell some off-color jokes and you’ll start hooking chicks like the best of ’em.”
You should be your kind, caring, loving self because many, many women will be looking for just that. And – frankly – many more will be after they (and likely I) realize that around 29-35 “edgy” just becomes annoying…
Agreed, ladies? Equally frustrated, nice guys? No longer a fan of this blog, new best friend?…
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I think the advice you could give the proverbial nice guy isn’t to try and act like more of a jerk. That’s like trying to fix jaundice by painting your skin. They just need to stop caring so much about other people and start caring more about themselves. Put yourself before others and girls will find you more ‘instantly attractive.’
This is a subject which I probably think I know more about than I do. Hell. I have a site called “How to deal with a nice guy.” But I’ve still got questions of my own.
I became a “rough around the edges” guy when I let my jadedness-about-being-nice get to me. After I’d been burned enough times, I stopped caring about whether or not girls paid attention to me… and sure enough, that was when girls started paying attention to me. It’s funny- guys get advised to “act like they don’t care,” and I tried to do that, but it didn’t work at all until the day that I actually stopped caring.
My theory about the way our attraction works is that if a guy or girl is too nice, it makes them seem like they have very little experience with the opposite sex and the world. When I meet a girl who’s too agreeable, I think to myself, “This girl’s never failed or struggled or truly been hurt. I can’t really relate to her.”
I’m extremely tired after an all-nighter so I’m going to call it quits. What does everyone think of that idea- the idea that over-niceness is unattractive because it makes you appear inexperienced with the ways of the world?
Tough love time (coming from a former “nice guy”).
The most useful piece of advice that a nice guy could get is that he’s not owed a damn thing just because he’s a nice guy. How nice you are is only one relatively minor factor in determining whether someone else will be attracted to you, it’s not the be-all, end-all quality that some guys make it out to be.
Nice guys who have a tendency to complain about finishing last need to remember that 1) not all girls want nice guys in the first place, but more importantly 2) you are not the only nice guy out there- in truth there are plenty of guys who aren’t only nice, but probably more confident, interesting, attractive, etc. (And it’s no coincidence that you will rarely hear those guys complain about their niceness being held against them). Just because the girls you’re interested in have gone for the wrong guys in the past does NOT mean that she will/should eventually wake up and choose to be with you simply because you’re nice to her. If she’s not interested, it’s because you’re lacking in the other areas that she’s looking for. Maybe those are things you can change, maybe they’re not.
What about the thought that women want to feel special? A nice guy is nice to everyone, whereas to win an “edgy” guy’s affection is a real accomplishment and something that he is not giving to every person who passes by. How does the “nice guy” make a woman feel special? By treating her extra nice? That could get really annoying.
Jessie, do you want a guy who doesn’t always jump at the chance to get dinner because you associate that with having your own mind/personality/strength? Do you want a strong male figure who exerts his own personality while also accepting yours? The former who “jumps” at your beck and call seems a bit too easily influenced?
Those aren’t rhetorical, by the by.
Here’s a pro-nice-guy vote. I can’t imagine dating a guy who makes me work for a compliment, or who may or may not follow through on plans, etc. I want a nice guy; always have, always will. In fact, I kept dating my last boyfriend for a while after it was apparent we had no chemistry, just *because* he was such a nice guy, and I wanted it to work so badly. (Before anyone accuses me of claiming lack of chemistry when I really mean he’s too nice, he broke up with me for lack of chemistry.)
However, I think sometimes dating lingo mis-defines “nice.” I have been on dates with a few self-proclaimed nice guys who were, in fact, nice guys, but nonetheless could be described as “too nice” in dating parlance because they were too clingy, and somehow in dating parlance, clingy guys = nice guys. Think about it – if a girl is clingy, she’s neurotic – if a guy engages in clingy behavior (calling all the time, wanting to spend every moment together, dropping the rest of his life for a girl), he’s considered “nice.” Just like I don’t want a bad boy, I also don’t want a clingy guy.
So, I would advise nice guys to evaluate what they think “nice” means. If they could/would be considered nice guys in all areas of their life, they’re fine. If the niceness is unique to the dating, or more pronounced in the dating, etc, though, consider whether or not your dating behavior is nice-nice, or clingy-nice.
I know plenty of nice guys. Heck, I’m a nice girl that often gets stuck in the “every guys bestfriend” category.
The big thing i have noticed with nice guys is that they lack the backbone to make a move. I’m sorry if i am sitting on your couch drinking a beer and you have the urge to kiss me- do it. Otherwise, i’m going to assume you don’t have the balls to date me. Guys don’t need to be mean. They just have to stop being afraid of rejection and go after what they want.
I agree with the “too easy” reason some people have mentioned about nice guys. My boyfriend is very nice in general, especially to me, but at the same time, he doesn’t put up with my crap. I’ll admit I’m a “taker” so if someone is “too nice,” I will probably take advantage. Not my best quality, but the truth that I’ve realized over the years. I need a bit of a challenge from my guy or I’ll get bored. This is not to say I want an asshole who’s mean, just someone who says “no” once in a while and tells me when I’m being selfish/bratty/unreasonable. I need someone to push back (but in a nice way).
My stance on this has always been that it’s not really about “nice” vs “asshole”, it’s that people like a challenge. It’s that old adage that nothing worthwhile is easy. Yeah, I know a few couples that make it look so painstakingly easy, but that’s never been what I go for. I want a girl who is going to bust my balls, who is gonna make me up my game. Because the girls who eat up the dumb stuff I say, it’s too easy, and I don’t really respect them as much. If a girl is going to make me really earn it, I’m going to be more include to bring the “A” game, and actually earn it.
I don’t like nice guys. Well, I like them just fine. But I’m not attracted to them. Here’s why (I’ll echo some of the points already made, but I think they need to be fleshed out more).
Nice to me means:
1) You don’t really know how to flirt with me, you only know how to be my friend. Which is fine as long as we’re talking football and movies, but doesn’t make me go, hmmm, I would like to kiss you now. Or I would like you to kiss me now. Sexual tension is non-negotiable.
2) You are too scared/ don’t want to be presumptuous/ about making a move. If I like you, I’m going to flirt back. You should be able to take the next step – whether that’s taking my number and calling, or kissing me, or whatever it might be. I know it’s not easy. I’m going to make it easy on you if I like you – you just have to have the confidence to see it. Or if I make the first move, you should know enough to make the next. And so forth.
3) You are inexperienced, both in relationships and sexually. I’ll add to the point made above – I think at this stage (mid-20s) you’re probably not super cynical, but you’ve had some heartbreak and some hard times, and you’ve got a few rough edges. That doesn’t mean you’re an asshole. It means that the nice things you do for me are surprising because they’re unexpected -at least at first – and to me, that gives them more meaning and emotion behind them. And when you compliment me, I know that it’s not something you say to every girl. (The assholes are more likely to spread the compliments around, I’ve found.)
4) And yes. I’ll admit I’ve dated assholes, I’ve slept with worse assholes, and I’m not immune to the asshole. But I know you can find your happy medium – the good guy who’s not a pushover, who gives you that give and take. I’ve got one. They’re out there.
I think it is that we like to work a little for the compliments. It’s not special when we have a “nice guy” bring us flowers every day (and yes I’m going to the far end of the spectrum on this, and 99% of nice guys wouldn’t do this, but just go with it), we want it to be special when he does. If we have a “nice guy” tell us every day just how absolutely beautiful we are, it loses its appeal to hear it. Again, we want it to really mean something when we hear it. So, the happy medium is what we really want. However, if we can’t find the medium point, we go for the “bad boy” because, in general, we like a challenge. It keeps like interesting.
I actually have a friend, who is a optimal “nice guy”, but I have no attraction to him at all. A girl would be lucky to have him, but I just can’t. Not edgy enough for me. It’s a double edged sword, I think us ladies just don’t really know what we want.
Here’s the thing that kills all nice guys. Worry and concern. Speaking as a “nice guy” and from past relationships the things that have killed the potential for a relationship and consequently allowed for a relationship to happen was WORRY.
Us nice guys we worry about the girl, for me it’s not fear of rejection that doesn’t allow me to make a move(okay so it’s partly that) but it’s worry over how awful it feels to be the person rejecting. I HATE being that person and being in that position.
But in my experience worry means I’m not being myself and either come across as well just a “nice guy”.
I have to say that crying about how “nice” you are is going to get you nowhere. Cause it sure as hell aint’ getting me anywhere.
I think the issue at hand is that “nice” is actually a code word. For me, in my group of friends, “nice” is code for “boring.” Because perhaps someone is kind, perhaps they’re generous, or selfless, or dedicated to some interesting charity, but if you’re reaching for the word “nice” to describe that person, chances are it’s because none of those qualities rise to the surface to distinguish themselves because that person is actually boring.
It’s not that I don’t buy that good guys have a hard time with women, but I don’t believe this notion that most women want an edge, or to have to “work for” attention. I think people want to be around interesting people, and if someone is so boring at the only distinguishing adjective you can come up with to describe him is “nice”…well, that’s what I think the major issue is.
I think the issue here is the definition of a ‘nice’ guy. Like some other posters have noted, it can mean clingy. Or doormat-ish. I don’t date ‘nice’ guys, but I only date ‘good’ guys. That means he can be counted on, is honest, and is decent and kind. He doesn’t leave me wondering where I stand with him- but if a guy starts pulling out all the stops before he really knows me I tend to think it has more to do with his need to ‘catch’ me than a genuine interest. Being a good guy doesn’t mean you’re predictable, or can’t tell off color jokes. I used to think guys who always left me guessing were attractive. It brought me a lot of serious unhappiness. You can be edgy, sexy, and exciting without being a pushover or a doormat- and certainly without being an asshole. If a guy doesn’t call when he says he’s going to, or bails on a date, I try not to take it personally– but the fact that he acted that way makes me way less interested, not more interested. I don’t get my self-esteem from being able to ‘catch’ a hard-to-get guy. I try to be as good a woman as I can be, and I try to only date guys who are compatible with that.
I think the issue here is the definition of a ‘nice’ guy. Like some other posters have noted, it can mean clingy. Or doormat-ish. I don’t date ‘nice’ guys, but I only date ‘good’ guys. That means he can be counted on, is honest, and is decent and kind. He doesn’t leave me wondering where I stand with him- but if a guy starts pulling out all the stops before he really knows me I tend to think it has more to do with his need to ‘catch’ me than a genuine interest. Being a good guy doesn’t mean you’re predictable, or can’t tell off color jokes. I used to think guys who always left me guessing were attractive. It brought me a lot of serious unhappiness. You can be edgy, sexy, and exciting without being a pushover or a doormat- and certainly without being an asshole. If a guy doesn’t call when he says he’s going to, or bails on a date, I try not to take it personally– but the fact that he acted that way makes me way less interested, not more interested. I don’t get my self-esteem from being able to ‘catch’ a hard-to-get guy. I try to be as good a woman as I can be, and I try to only date guys who are compatible with that.
hey! the niceguy shtick always worked for me. the only problem i have now is that I’m dead. but even as a corpse, I’m handsome and have traditional values. so go ahead and ask me out, girls!
Before my brother-in-law started dating my sister, he always said he was looking for “a nice girl, with an edge.” He found her in my sister: kind, caring, thoughtful, not too clingy, and able to hold her own in a variety of situations. She can dish out the sarcasm, make fun of him, make fun of herself, etc. They are both genuinely nice people, but they both leave a little room for that challenge, for that fun side, to put in that extra effort that says “hey, this is different. I like you. I really like you and I’m going to show you that.”
I think what we want: an nice guy, with an edge. Someone who is genuinely a good person, who cares about us, our friends, our life, his friends, calls his mom, etc. But, he goes the extra mile to bring excitement to a relationship and to really show that you are different.
I still haven’t found that guy yet, but I haven’t lost hope either. It’s too easy to just give up. I like the challenge. 🙂
I absolutely LOVE what Doug said. It gets really old really fast when some nice guy thinks he should automatically get to be with any woman just because he’s nice. My boyfriend is extremely kind and generous, but what initially attracted me was that he could tease me and wouldn’t be walked on.
It’s not that other guys are assholes and you’re the only nice man out there. Some other nice men just might happen to be more confident or charming. I’m sorry. I’m sure you’re lovely. Just maybe lighten up a little.
I completely agree…and point in case “travis dillinger”. http://100girls100days.com/about/
You read this blog.. and personally I started having a thing for this guy. He’s unattainable, mean-funny, a little dark, drinks too much, enjoys a little dirty sex.. etc.
And then there’s the “man behind the curtain” http://100girls100days.com/2010/04/03/the-man-behind-the-curtain/
After getting to know the author and hearing his real life love stories… (and yes, some of the 100 days are true) he became less intriguing….he became another “nice guy”.
I think it also depends on the girls the “nice guys” are going for. I think “nice guys” are more open minded and accepting and therefore may be open to trying to date more types of girls and therefore upping there changes of being shot down.
Bad guys are usually bad for a reason. There is commonly an insecurity they are covering up or trying to balance out. Therefore they are not going for girls they know they can get… they are going for girls that will want them, but yet giving off the impression that they, themselves, are hard to get.
This starts the cycle of girls seeing the bad boy as unattainable an wanting to chase him (we play the chase game too) and then the boys only going for the ones they can get bec they don’t like rejection and the nice guys watching from the sidelines wondering why they aren’t playing…
I know this site is called “20-Nothings” and there-in lies your problem I think. As a soon to be 40 year-old (but look fabulous might I add)I think you might want to reconsider the girls you are finding yourself attracted to. I can tell you right now – what I wouldn’t give for a “nice guy”. With that being said, if you lie down and play dead every time we have a tiff, I can tell you right now – it’s not going to work. I would love the combination of someone who can make me laugh, treats me well and with respect AND stands up for what he believes in – even if your about to go against me. A nice guy is great, but a wet noodle is far from attractive.
Now, I don’t think your physical attributes were mentioned and I am SURE I am going to catch flack for this statement but…your looks are what’s going to get your foot in the door, it’s your personallity that’s going to keep it from slamming in your face but everyone’s tastes are different.
Bottom line – at my age, I am tired of the games. I am upfront and honest about what I am looking for and if you stand me up once or don’t call when you say you’re going to, you’re history. You have to wonder about what type of girl you are trying to attract if they have so little self-respect that they don’t consider you a “catch” until you’ve wiped your feet on them a couple of times.
If I knew then what I know now – oh, the heartache I could have avoided!
You should be your kind, caring, loving self because many, many women will be looking for just that. And – frankly – many more will be after they (and likely I) realize that around 29-35 “edgy” just becomes annoying…
Yeah, but then the nice guy has already figured it out and doesnt want them anymore. They are used goods and their looks have vanished.