PART ONE:
Let’s recap.
My position: If you don’t date shitty guys, you won’t have to play hard to get.
Conclusion: We have the same position, and it’s essentially this.
There are girls out there who are crazy. Bat-shit, stalker-call-til-he-picks-up, call-him-her-husband-before- their-first-date, start-asking-to-sleep-at-his-place-every-single-night-following-date-one crazy. They exist. They can’t help themselves. And they’re not really a factor in this conversation.
Then there are guys who, on the other extreme – are looking for a coy, mysterious, game-playing, chase-inspiring girl. These guys want to make every move and call every shot. They’re not interested if she starts suggesting dinners and asking to meet his guy friends before he’s ready.
These types exist and, as such, the people who find themselves dating these types have to act accordingly. So the crux of my whole assessment of this situation is – avoid dating these people. Also, girls, try not to be insane and guys, try to give a little and understand that in many, many circumstances she’s playing hard to get because she doesn’t want you to get her…
In conclusion – IF you (girls) are making sensible moves to prove your affection and the guy is immediately turned off – he’s not the right guy for you. Point blank period.
NOW, PART II:
To get a little more color around what guys think of the female perspective on this whole issue, I sent a “what do you guys think about this whole issue?” email. I got several one-line responses agreeing with the comments on the blog – as expected – and then I got this:
“I know you talked about girls playing hard to get, but another possible theory maybe managing the other sex’s expectations. Conventional wisdom tells us that girls love going on dates, whereas guys could probably either way. I’m not saying that guys don’t like dating, but at first we go on them b/c that’s what we’re supposed to do, and later on in the relationship, it’s to keep the woman happy. We, of course, enjoy the company of our dates/girlfriends/wives, but many times, dating can become obligatory. And when I say dating, I mean it in the sense of doing activities together – dinner, movies, plays, etc, and really the whole attention that comes into play early in the dating/relationship.
So on a fundamental level – girls love dating and guys may enjoy it, yet not love it. I think this affects your “when I really like him/her…” b/c in the beginning, guys are at their creative height, while girls try to water down their own enthusiam. Guys are trying to show that they’re unlike all other guys since they really enjoy the whole courting thing. Girls, on the other hand, don’t want to come across too enthusiastic, perhaps for fear of coming across as high-maintenanced or hoping not to attract too much attention. It just seems that early on, with girls holding back, they’re much more worried about scaring guys off, instead of engaging in affirmative acts, like the guys do. Just another possible explanation to your findings.”
I know there is a lot of interesting information in this guy’s assessment, but I stopped reading at “conventional wisdom tells us that girls love going on dates, whereas guys could probably either way.” Uuugghh that makes an annoying amount of sense… It doesn’t change things, per se, but it starts the whole situation from a different stand point.
Guys? Agree or disagree? Girls, maybe best to sit this one out until we have some more intel.
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Disagree: If I’m with someone, although I want space and time for myself/friends, I still want to do the activities I like with her. And, I’ll also do activities she likes as well. Hopefully, we’ll enjoy them together or learn something new as a result.
Ex. I golf. I’d love it if she golfed with me. We don’t have to go out every time together, but it’s great to share a Saturday afternoon on the course. She loves going to concerts (I don’t). We’d go together when there were bands one of us wanted to see, but I wouldn’t follow her to the U2 show because it’s not something that really interests me.
Dating, even after a long time in a relationship, is a lot of fun. But anything can be a date: a bike ride, lunch in the park, drinks at a swanky hotel, a baseball game, etc.
Do most dudes really hate all that stuff?
Also disagree. I’m a girl, and I don’t particularly like dating – I’m much more comfortable with the “being in the relationship” part of dating, rather than the “going on planned dates to get to know you” part of dating. The latter is so often awkward – you don’t know what each other likes yet so it’s hard to share common interest activities, you don’t really know them yet so you’re spending lots of time with a stranger rather than developing the relationship organically like you would do with a friend, etc. Of course, I recognize I’m the odd woman out here.
As for girls’ strategy when they like a guy – I don’t think it’s (always) so much playing hard to get, as trying to not seem desperate. There’s a pervasive and destructive stereotype of women as obsessed with husband and kids and they’ll latch on to anything male that moves, immediately, to gain the husband. Holding back is, I think, one way to subconsciously signal that you’re not one of those girls – you accept guys for who they are rather than just latching on because you are desperate for a husband. It’s still not a healthy strategy, but I don’t think it’s so much game-playing (at least in the sense of purposefully stringing him along/playing hard to get) as it is trying to not come across as desperate (ie needy, weak, pathetic, etc).
I like to consider myself a rationally minded guy so here’s my perspective on this conversation. I don’t think it’s so much conventional wisdom that guys think girls like going on dates, but rather asking a girl to dinner is one of the more clear-cut, efficient approaches to say “hey! I’m interested/attracted to you. Are you interested/attracted enough in me to sit down to a potentially (ahem…likely) awkward conversation over dinner?” You said yes?! Great! So you’re saying there’s a chance (Dumb & Dumber). You said no?! No worries, dates are super uncomfortable anyways.
Let’s be serious, nobody likes an awkward conversation (outside of those held in The Office Season 2), but we’ve all been there and I’m confident that we’ll be there again. It’s that things will always get tense when something is on the line (i.e., I don’t want to f*ck this up) or awkward during points of transition. The first date happens to be at the apex where something is on the line and at a point of transition and as such is more likely to be both awkward and tense (“Excuse me, garson?! Another bottle of the Sauvignon Blanc please…”)
I’ve come to this conclusion after being on plenty of true first dates (i.e., I hope I can remember what she looks like when I get to the restaurant when facebooking may come off as creepy/I don’t have enough intel to find her) and enough first dates that have come as the result of meeting a friend of a friend. To cut the chase – the latter is far preferred, but still not without its awkward moments. Sure, we’ve been hanging out, flirting, sharing in activities, can recite each other’s stats (school, family, work, blah blah blah), but all this is fun and games and may never move forward or there may be some uncertainty as to whether or not one “like likes” the other. The solution – “Hey Suzie, I wanted to see if after this totally fun group activity that we’re doing right now you wanted to get some dinner” “Well, I know Betty has to meet up with work friends and Jon has…” “ No No, I was thinking just the two of us.” “Oh! Um…yea, that sounds like fun. We should definitely do that, just need to check in with my roommate who may be expecting me to get dinner with her. Can I let you know?” And BOOM things went from totally fun, flirty, casual, to oh sh!t this dude likes me I need to go into date mode.
So I’d probably need to start my own blog to finish the rest of that “hypothetical” situation, but I think the message is that Firsts in any relationship are unavoidable. By their very nature, Firsts are uncomfortable and awkward. Picking up a ball alone in a room and throwing it with your left hand the first time (<friends, friends –> hooking up, hooking up –> “I love you” things will be a bit uncomfortable for both parties. The mitigating factor with all this, I believe, is establishing your comfort and acceptance level as soon as possible. Because to be honest – even if the girl im on a date with snorts when she laughs, I definitely don’t want her to hold back her laughter because I may think less of her. But hey, I’m an accepting dude…